Srila Prabhupada speaks on: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.5.8

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.5.8

Vṛndāvana, Oct. 30, 1976

Audio for this lecture: https://prabhupadavani.org/transcriptions/761030sbvrn/
Prabhupada Radio: https://prabhupadaradio.com

Devotee: Translation = "The attraction between male and female is the basic principle of material existence. On the basis of this misconception, which ties together the hearts of the male and female, one becomes attracted to his body, home, property, children, relatives and wealth. In this way one increases life's illusions and thinks in terms of 'I' and 'mine.' "

Prabhupāda:

puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etaṁ
tayor mitho hṛdaya-granthim āhuḥ
ato gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair
janasya moho ayam ahaṁ mameti
[SB 5.5.8]

This is material world, ahaṁ mameti, "I am this," artho 'ham, balavān aham. "I am everything," aham, "and this is mine. This is my property. This is my country. This is my society. This is my nation." Mine, mine, mine. And I, I, I. This is material world. Kṛṣṇa says, bhoktāraṁ yajña-tapasāṁ sarva-loka-maheśvaram [Bg. 5.29]. The Supreme Personality of Godhead declares clearly that "I am the proprietor." Śāstra says, Veda says, īśāvāsyam idam sarvam [Īśo mantra 1] = it is God's property, everything. We are claiming, our country, "This is my country," but as soon as you go on the beach of the sea, your country finishes, the land. Then whose..., the water, whose water that is? But the foolish person = "No, it is in my thrall[?], it is mine." So this is moha, illusion. We have heard so many times about illusion. This is illusion, ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. "I am this body, and everything in my bodily relationship, that is mine."

So how it begins? The begins, mithunī-bhāvam etam, the unity of man and woman. Mithunī-bhāvam. A man is searching after woman, and woman is searching after man. How nature's arrangement to keep the conditioned soul under the laws of nature... Because the conditioned souls are put under the laws of nature; or he has come voluntarily under the laws of nature.

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare
pasate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare
[Prema-vivarta]

As soon as we deny to serve Kṛṣṇa, immediately māyā. As soon as we deny to obey the state laws, immediately we are criminal and subjected to the criminal acts, "Go to the prison." This is..., we have got practical experience. You cannot defy the laws of the state or the laws of the words of the government. If we cannot... You cannot do it. If you do it, then you are punishable. That is the statement in every śāstra. Daṇḍaniya. Daṇḍaniya, this daṇḍa is going on, one after another. Daṇḍa means punishment. But we are, because we are in illusion, we are thinking this daṇḍa is advancement of civilization. Daṇḍa.

So we should know, puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam etam [SB 5.5.8] = this material world is nothing but a false attraction between man and woman. Not only in human society---in birds, beast, animal, aquatics, trees, plants, everywhere. You will find these pigeons, as soon as one female pigeon is there, and the male pigeon immediately wants to canvass, "Please come. Let us unite." You have seen, this is nature's way, sparrow. The same things = puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī. So therefore in the human society, by Vedic knowledge, by education you have to understand that we are bound up within this material world. What is the cause? The cause is that attraction between man and woman. This is the cause. Puṁsaḥ. Puṁsaḥ means the bhokta, the enjoyer. Here the male and female, both of them are puṁsaḥ, puruṣaḥ, because everyone has got that feeling that "I shall enjoy." Nobody is feeling that "I shall be enjoyed." Everyone is thinking, "I shall enjoy." Nobody wants to be predominated; everyone wants to be predominator. This is the illusion.

So Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement means to learn how to be predominated, not to become predominator. Just the opposite. And Kṛṣṇa comes personally and He says that "I am the predominator." Sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekam śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. "I am predominator. Why you are trying to be predominator? That is not possible." So as soon as artificially we want to be predominator, immediately the māyā is there.

kṛṣṇa bhuliya jīva bhoga vāñchā kare
pasate māyā tāre jāpaṭiyā dhare
[Prema-vivarta]

Everybody is = "All right, come here." This is the human civilization, to learn that because I wanted to become predominator = "I am the monarch of all I survey. Whatever I survey, that is my property...," so this inclination, this false inclination, is the cause of our bondage within this material world. We should know that we are ahaṁ brahmāsmi, "I am spirit soul." And we learn from Kṛṣṇa that na jāyate na mriyate vā kadācin. "I cannot take birth; I cannot die. I am not subjected to sufferings of this material world. But why I am put into this condition?" That is called conditioned soul. That is called intelligence. I am not to be conditioned. I am part and parcel of Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa is free; I am also free, because I am His part and parcel. I may be small, very small. A gold particle is gold, that is not otherwise. So all the qualities of gold is there, even it is particle. So these things are to be considered, and this knowledge can be acquired. This is called brahma-jijñāsā. Athāto brahma jijñāsā.

So unless a civilized man is trained up to understand these problems of life, what is that life? That is animal life. If one is not jijñāsu, if one is not inquisitive about the miserable condition of his life, if he remains satisfied in miserable condition of life, then he is nothing but animal. Animal cannot understand. Animal is being taken to the slaughterhouse, and they are going very easily, and one animal enters the slaughterhouse shed, every animal will enter. In Hindi it is called bheriyāgasā[?]. One bheri enters, then all the bheris will enter, automatically. He does not know that "Where I am entering? I am entering in this way for being slaughtered." But he has no knowledge. This is going on. This is called illusion. Ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. We, in Hindi it is called [Hindi]. When you are married in India, there is some band party, and the bride..., bridegroom is decorated like king, and he is on the horseback and is taken. But one who knows, he says that "This rascal is becoming more rascal." [Hindi] So therefore to check him not to become a [Hindi], gadā, ass, the first education is brahmacārī---don't enter. Don't enter this puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam. That is education; that is called brahmacārī. Warning, that "It is not good. Better remain brahmacārī," brahmecaratiti brahmacārī. "Remain with Brahman, celibacy. You will be happy." But... That is the first education, brahmacārī. Then one, if he is unable to remain brahmacārī, "All right, take wife, regulated, gṛhastha." Don't remain cats and dogs. That is not human civilization. First of all, education is, "Don't unite. Remain brahmacārī." But if you are not able, "All right, take a wife like a gentleman and live like a gentleman." Ekonari brahmacārī, that is also... If one is satisfied with one woman, then he is also brahmacārī. He is not vyabhicārī.

So that is regulated, that you must have wife. Not must have, but if you cannot avoid, take one wife and remain as a gṛhastha. And there are so many rules and regulations of gṛhastha life. Gṛhastha life is not that "Whenever I like, we have sex." No, that is not. There is regulated = once in a month. When there is menstruation, and if the wife is pregnant---then no more sex life. There are so many rules and regulations. The gṛhastha means one who follows the rules and regulation of sex life. That is gṛhastha. Not that simply united, man and woman, and live like animals. No, that is not gṛhastha. That is called gṛhamedhi. Gṛhamedhi and gṛhastha, there are two words. Gṛhamedhi means he does not know the rules and regulation. He thinks that this family, this husband and wife, children and home, that is everything. That is called gṛhamedhi. But gṛhastha means he is as good as a sannyāsī. Gṛhe tiṣṭhati 'pi gṛhastha[?]. He is suitable... He is not suitable to become a brahmacārī, because every facility is there, but regulated. And one who follows the regulative principles, he is āśrama. Either it is gṛhastha āśrama or sannyāsa āśrama, the same thing. Āśrama means---very easily understood in India; there is discussion---the place where the spiritual culture is cultivated, that is called āśrama. What is the difference between the āśrama and ordinary home? Ordinary home means the..., without any regulative principles, and āśrama means real purpose is self-realization, development of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. But if one is unable to accept sannyāsa āśrama or brahmacārī āśrama, that is gṛhastha āśrama. Not that animal āśrama.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu, therefore He has said, "If we are eager for advancement in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we can stay in any āśrama. It doesn't matter." Either gṛhastha āśrama or sannyāsa āśrama, it doesn't matter. Kṛṣṇa..., Caitanya Mahāprabhu says to Rāmaṇanda,

kibā vipra, kibā śūdra, nyāsī kene naya
yei kṛṣṇa-tattva-vettā, sei 'guru' haya
[Cc. Madhya 8.128]

Sei guru. Who can become guru? Generally a brāhmaṇa, a sannyāsī, that is, that is..., they are forced. Brāhmaṇa is the guru of other varṇas, and sannyāsī is the guru for all varṇāśrama. This is... But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that is social system. If there is a brāhmaṇa, if there is a sannyāsī, one should accept..., give preference to him, to accept guru. But Caitanya Mahāprabhu says, "That is not the criterion. One must be well expert, experienced, well aware of the science of Kṛṣṇa. He shall be guru." Not that particularly because one is born in a brāhmaṇa family or one has taken sannyāsa, he is immediately by the dress or by birth one can become guru. No. That is going on. Now it is diminishing. Formerly, in India it was the practice.

So Caitanya Mahāprabhu says that "It doesn't matter." Kibā vipra, kibā śūdra. Vipra means brāhmaṇa, and śūdra means the fourth class, less than the vaiśyas. So kibā vipra, kibā śūdra, nyāsī kene naya. Nyāsī means sannyāsī. Never mind nyāsī, or without nyāsī, because śūdra cannot be sannyāsī. Without becoming brāhmaṇa, there is no question of becoming sannyāsa. In the Śaṅkara-sampradāya they are very strict. Unless one is born in a brāhmaṇa family, he is not awarded the sannyāsa. That is the stricture. But according to our Vaiṣṇava, according to Caitanya Mahāprabhu, pāñcarātrikī-viddhi, if there is little tendency of the person to become devotee, he is given the chance, never mind he's born in a śūdra family, a caṇḍāla family. That is sanctioned in the śāstra = kirāta-hūṇāndhra-pulinda pulkaśā ābhīra-śumbhā yavanāḥ khasādayaḥ, ye 'nye ca pāpā [SB 2.4.18]. Anyone. Kṛṣṇa also says, māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ [Bg. 9.32]. So Nārada Muni, he is a great devotee, he has given allowance to everyone to become a brāhmaṇa, to become a sannyāsī. First of all he must be trained up to become a brāhmaṇa, then sannyāsī. This is a fact. Without becoming a brāhmaṇa, there is no question of sannyāsa.

So these regulative principles are there. So what is..., what is the big plan behind these regulative principle? The big plan is = here is the attraction, puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī-bhāvam---to cut down this attraction between male and female. This is the big plan. Otherwise, there is no need of the varṇāśrama. Varnāśrama means to train the candidates gradually to become free from this entanglement of man and woman. This is the basic principle. Yoga system is also the same thing. Jñānī, that is also same. Karma also. The karma-kāṇḍīya vicāra, that is also, one has to take sannyāsa at the ultimately, cātur-varṇyaṁ mayā sṛṣṭam guṇa-karma-vibhāgaśaḥ [Bg. 4.13], gradually, if one cannot take it immediately.

So this is the training of Bhagavad-gītā. This is the training of Bhāgavata. Everywhere the Vedic principle, the first principle is that we have forgotten Kṛṣṇa. In the previous verse we have already studied, gata-smṛtir vindati tatra tāpān [SB 5.5.7], because we have forgotten what is our position. Gata-smṛti. Smṛti means memory. There is one word called alpa-medhasām, and there is another word, su-medhasam. These words are there, tad-bhavati alpa-medhasām, in the Bhagavad-gītā. Those who are trying to be happy in this material world, kāmais tais tair hṛta-jñānāḥ... [Bg. 7.20]. They, people generally, they are kāma, this kāma, puṁsaḥ striyā mithunī; this is kāma. This kāma is manifested in different ways. The actually the central point is kāma. So that when that kāma is fulfilled... Because a man is searching after woman and woman is searching after man, when they unite, then the kāma becomes hard knot, very tightly. When they are separated, there is chance of not being tied, but as soon as they are tied by marriage or by some way or other, then tayor mitha hṛdaya-granthim āhur. Hṛdaya-granthim. We are already attracted to these things, and when it is united, then we see practically in our Indian families that when the boy is grown up and the girl is grown up, the father, mother unite them by marriage system. Everywhere. But India still going on. Why? Because unless he is married, he'll not get attracted to this material life.

So the father and mother's duty is to unite them so that they may not be spoiled, they may not be like cats and dogs. At least there will be some regulative principles they will follow. But the bondage is, as soon as they are united, the economic development, ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra-sutāpta-vittair [SB 5.5.8], then searching after = "Now we must have an apartment. So to..." Either you construct a house or rent a house, anyway, money is required, so you will be enthused to earn money = "I have got wife, I have to keep her nicely, I have to eat nicely, I have to give her dress, and so on, so on." So first of all, get one apartment or house, ataḥ gṛha. Then how to maintain the house. Formerly there was no other business except that agriculture. Agriculture, that is the economic, annād bhavanti bhūtāni [Bg. 3.14]. We have to eat, so grow food grains. So where shall I grow my food grains? Not on the roof, but I must have some land; ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra, land is wanted, ataḥ gṛha-kṣetra. Then putra-hīnaṁ gṛhaṁ śūnyam. Family life, married life, but there is no son. That is another troublesome There are so many married life, they haven't got son, children---they are very unhappy. They spend so much money to get a children. They go to the saintly persons and beg blessing, "Give us one children, one child."

There was one great big man long ago, he had no child, so he came to my Guru Mahārāja and he offered, "Guru Mahārāja, if I get a child, I can give you the whole estate." So these are natural demands. First of all husband and wife and child, then apartment, then land, then friends, then money, in this way we become entangled more, ahaṁ mameti [SB 5.5.8]. So instead of sukhera lagiya ei ghara bandhun, I became a householder for happiness, agune puriya gela, now there is blazing fire. Sukhera lagiya ei ghara bandhun agune puriya gela. And there is another, ravana hoila ithe gatila janja: "I wanted to be happy in this way, but it has become an embarassment." So this is going on.

So we should not be entangled as far as possible. It is not possible, very, very difficult, but if it is possible we can..., there is brahmacārī. This is tapasya. Because we have begun these verses, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyed sattvam [SB 5.5.1]. Tapasya. That tapasya begins, tapasā brahmacāryeṇa [SB 6.1.13], brahmacārī. That is tapasya. So if possible we should try to remain. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is so nice, if we accept Kṛṣṇa very seriously, with Kṛṣṇa anyone, either man or woman, we can remain very happy with Kṛṣṇa. Kṛṣṇa can become my friend, Kṛṣṇa can become my husband, Kṛṣṇa can become my son---whatever you want. So in this way, if we advance in Kṛṣṇa consciousness, then we can save ourselves, janasya moho 'yam. In this illusory galaxy of illusory, this material world, we may be saved, and that is wanted that we have to give up the attraction for this material world. Then there is possibility of spiritual advancement. Therefore Kṛṣṇa is canvassing personally that "You give up all these plans, sarva-dharmān parityajya mām ekaṁ śaraṇaṁ vraja [Bg. 18.66]. That will save you from this precarious position of material world, threefold miseries, suffering after suffering after suffering."

Thank you very much.

Devotees: Jaya... [end]

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Srila Prabhupada speaks on: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.5.3-4

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.5.3-4

Bombay, March 29, 1977

Audio for this lecture: https://prabhupadavani.org/transcriptions/770329sbbom/
Prabhupada Radio: https://prabhupadaradio.com

Girirāja: We wish to thank the honourable Chief Minister S. B. Chavan for his beautiful talk and understanding of the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Actually, we are very pleased to inform you that today we have received another letter from Russia. Acknowledging receipt of six of Śrīla Prabhupāda's books. And thanking us very much for sending these books.

[Audience applauds by clapping]

The letter further said that these books will be of very great interest to scholars and person specialising in Indian thought and culture, in Russia. So, as the honourable Chief Minister said this is further proof of the validity of Kṛṣṇa consciousness. That Kṛṣṇa consciousness is not a sectarian religious faith. Just as there are so many different faiths and so many different fanatical people who are following those faiths. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is actually a universal science that has validity in all parts of the world. Actually all parts of the universe, all different universes, all different races. Not only all different races but even amongst the demigods, in all species of life. Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is all auspicious for the welfare of every living entity. So therefore we say that Śrīla Prabhupāda is the greatest welfare worker in the whole universe because he is giving actual ...

[Audience applauds by clapping]

... He's actually giving relief to the living entities all over the world and this relief can... this relief can only be given by Kṛṣṇa consciousness. It cannot be given by any material adjustment. So now we shall ask Śrīla Prabhupāda himself the real guru of the universe to speak before this gathering.

[Audience applauds by clapping]

Acyutānanda:

ya vā mayīśe kṛta-sauhṛdārthā
janeṣu dehambhara-vārtikeṣu
gṛheṣu jāyātmaja-rātimatsu
na prīti-yuktā yāvad-arthāś ca loke
[SB 5.5.3]

"Those who are interested in reviving Kṛṣṇa consciousness and increasing their love of Godhead do not like to do anything that is not related to Kṛṣṇa. They are not interested in mingling with people who are busy maintaining their bodies, eating, sleeping, mating and defending. They are not attached to their homes, although they may be householders. Nor are they attached to wives, children, friends or wealth. At the same time, they are not indifferent to the execution of their duties. Such people are interested in collecting only enough money to keep body and soul together."

Purport = "Whether he is an impersonalist or a devotee, one who is actually interested in advancing spiritually should not mingle with those who are simply interested in maintaining the body by means of the so-called advancement of civilization. Those who are interested in spiritual life should not be attached to homely comforts in the company of wife, children, friends and so forth. Even if one is a gṛhastha and has to earn his livelihood, he should be satisfied by collecting only enough money to maintain body and soul together. One should not have more than that nor less than that. As indicated herein, a householder should endeavor to earn money for the execution of bhakti-yoga---śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam/ arcanaṁ vandanaṁ dāsyaṁ sakhyam ātma-nivedanam [SB 7.5.23]. A householder should lead such a life that he gets full opportunity to hear and chant. He should worship the Deity at home, observe festivals, invite friends in and give them prasāda. A householder should earn money for this purpose, not for sense gratification."

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
asann api kleśada āsa dehaḥ
[SB 5.5.4]

"When a person considers sense gratification the aim of life, he certainly becomes mad after materialistic living and engages in all kinds of sinful activity. He does not know that due to his past misdeeds he has already received a body which, although temporary, is the cause of his misery. Actually the living entity should not have taken a material body, but he has been awarded the material body for sense gratification. Therefore I think it not befitting an intelligent man to involve himself again in the activities of sense gratification, by which he perpetually gets material bodies one after another."

Purport = "Begging, borrowing and stealing to live for sense gratification is condemned in this verse because such consciousness leads one to a dark, hellish condition. The four sinful activities are illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication and gambling. These are the means by which one gets another material body that is full of miseries. In the Vedas it is said = asaṅgo hy ayaṁ puruṣaḥ. The living entity is not really connected with this material world, but due to his tendency to enjoy the material senses, he is put into the material condition. One should perfect his life by associating with devotees. He should not become further implicated in the material body."

Prabhupāda: Hare Kṛṣṇa.

nūnaṁ pramattaḥ kurute vikarma
yad indriya-prītaya āpṛṇoti
na sādhu manye yata ātmano 'yam
kleśada āsa dehaḥ
[SB 5.5.4]

The real problem of life is not to adjust things materially, change from one form of government to another form of government. These things are temporary things. It will not give relief. And this fighting between one party with another amongst the politicians or the kṣatriyas or the administrators, they are going on perpetually. That is not a very new thing. So we should not forget our real life. For ruling over to get political predominance, there may be fighting. That is natural. It is going on. Just like the Battle of Kurukṣetra---it is a fighting between two section of the same family, who will rule over. So there was fighting, but at the same time, they did not lose Kṛṣṇa culture. That is the important point. Similarly, India has got a great culture, background, Vedic culture, or Kṛṣṇa culture. Vedic culture means Kṛṣṇa culture, and Kṛṣṇa culture means Vedic culture. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. So study Veda or Vedānta means to understand Kṛṣṇa. That is the purpose. Vedaiś ca sarvair. Veda means "knowledge," and anta means "end." Vedānta. Vyāsadeva, Śrīla Vyāsadeva, he has given us the Vedānta philosophy. What is the purpose? That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā:

sarvasya cāhaṁ hṛdi-sanniviṣṭo
mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca
vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyaṁ
vedānta-vid vedānta-kṛt ca aham
[Bg. 15.15]

So we should take care of very seriously about this culture of Bhagavad-gītā. This is India's property. This Vedic culture, instruction of Bhagavad-gītā, was spoken on the land of Bhārata-varṣa, although it is not meant for a particular class of men or a class of people or in a particular country. It is meant for everyone---manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu kaścid yatati siddhaye [Bg. 7.3]---especially for the human being. So our request is that we may fight amongst ourself for political predominance, but why should we forget our real culture, Vedic culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness? That is our request. All important men, leaders of the society, they should take this Vedic culture, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, and not only preach in their own country, but all over the world. [break] If you don't take it, there is a great risk. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

aśradaddhānāḥ puruṣā
dharmasyāsya parantapa
māṁ aprāpya eva nivartante
mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani
[Bg. 9.3]

Kṛṣṇa says personally. He comes, yadā yadā hi dharmasya glānir bhavati bhārata, tadātmānaṁ sṛjāmy aham [Bg. 4.7], for the benefit of the human society. Because dharmasya glānir. Dharma is meant for the human society. Dharma is not meant for the cats and dogs. They have no dharma. You cannot have any religious principle or institution in the cat society or dog society. Dharmeṇa hīnāḥ paśubhiḥ samānāḥ [Hitopadeśa]. Therefore when human society becomes devoid of dharma, then it is animal society. It is no longer human society.

And what is that dharma, I have several times spoken. Dharmaṁ tu sāksād bhagavat-praṇītam [SB 6.3.19]. Dharma means the law or the words given by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. That is dharma. That is the shortcut definition of dharma. "You should do this; you should not do this." Just like the government gives us law, "Keep to the right." So that is law. Although it is very simple thing, "Keep to the right," but that is law. Similarly, what Kṛṣṇa says... Kṛṣṇa is the Supreme Personality of Godhead. If we take it for proper utilization of our this great boon of life, human form of life, then we become dharmī, and our life is successful.

What Kṛṣṇa says, that is not at all difficult. Even a child can perform. What Kṛṣṇa said? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Very simple thing. Kṛṣṇa says, "Always think of Me." What is the difficulty? Even a child can think of Kṛṣṇa. If he goes to the temple and if he understands from his parents that "Here is the Deity, Kṛṣṇa," it impresses. He understands, "Here is Kṛṣṇa," because he is simple. So he can also think of Kṛṣṇa = "I went to the temple. I saw Kṛṣṇa very nicely dressed, very nicely decorated. Very nice foodstuff was offered, and I got the prasādam." Where is the difficulty? Man-manā bhava mad-bhakto. And if you go regularly to see Kṛṣṇa in the temple and to remember Him, then you become a bhakta. It doesn't require that you have to pass M.A. examination to become a bhakta, or you have to become a very learned scholar. But because that is the end of knowledge. Vedaiś ca sarvair aham eva vedyam [Bg. 15.15]. If you simply understand Kṛṣṇa, your all Vedic knowledge is perfect. Ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim [Nārada Pañcarātra]. If you have understood Hari, Kṛṣṇa, the Supreme Personality of Godhead, tapasā tataḥ kim, then where is the necessity of tapasya? You have achieved the result of tapasya.

Because to understand Kṛṣṇa is not so easy.

manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu
kaścid yatati siddhaye
yatatām api siddhānāṁ
kaścid vetti māṁ tattvataḥ
[Bg. 7.3]

To understand Kṛṣṇa he requires great tapasya. There is no doubt about it. But if some way or other you have understood Kṛṣṇa, then ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim [Nārada Pañcarātra]. There is no more need of tapasya. Your ultimate goal of life is already achieved. And nārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim. And you have performed great austerities, penances, but you do not know what is Kṛṣṇa---then it is useless waste of time. Nārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim. What is the value of your tapasya? Real thing you do not understand. So ārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, nārādhito yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim, antar bahir yadi haris tataḥ kim. If you have learned these four principles as instructed by Bhagavān, man-manā bhava mad-bhakto mad-yājī māṁ namaskuru... [Bg. 18.65]. Very simple thing. Antar bahir, within and without, if you have learned to think of Kṛṣṇa, antar bahir yadi haris tapasā, then where is the use of tapasya? It is already achieved. Because you are thinking always, externally and internally, Kṛṣṇa. And nārādhito yadi haris. Antar bahir yadi haris tapasā tataḥ kim. If you have not learned the art of thinking Kṛṣṇa externally and internally, then what is the use of your so-called tapasya?

So this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement is very easy. If it cannot be introduced, I mean to say, in large scale, collectively, individually anyone can learn and take the Vedic wisdom. Anyone, even a child. Man-manā bhava mad-bhakta. And what is the result? The result is mām evaiṣyasi asaṁśayaḥ [Bg. 18.68]. Anyone who is doing this, asaṁśaya, "Without any doubt, you are coming to Me." That is the aim of life, how to go back to home, back to Godhead. Not to join here in the dog's race. That is not aim of life. It will not make me happy, anyone happy.

prakṛteḥ kriyamāṇāni
guṇaiḥ karmāṇi sarvaśaḥ
ahaṅkāra-vimūḍhātmā
kartāham iti manyate
[Bg. 3.27]

The nature's law is working very stringently. You cannot avoid it.

daivī hy eṣā guṇamayī
mama māyā duratyayā
mām eva ye prapadyante
māyām etāṁ taranti te
[Bg. 7.14]

So these things are there. I can quote many verses like that. But Kṛṣṇa consciousness is very easy, and everyone should become Kṛṣṇa conscious. That is the aim of life. Na te viduḥ svārtha-gatiṁ hi viṣṇuṁ durāśayā ye bahir-artha-māninaḥ [SB 7.5.31]. We are trying to adjust things externally, but that will never be fulfilled. Durāśayā. This is hope against hope. You cannot do anything independently because you are fully under the clutches of māyā. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati. Kṛṣṇa says, "My dear Arjuna, Īśvara, the Supreme Lord, is situated in the core of everyone's heart." He is not far away. And He is observing. In the Upaniṣads it is said that there are two birds on one tree. One is eating the fruit, and the other is witnessing. The witnessing bird is Kṛṣṇa, and the eating bird is the jīvātmā.

So Kṛṣṇa is so friendly that He always lives with us just to turn our face towards Kṛṣṇa. Īśvaraḥ sarva-bhūtānāṁ hṛd-deśe arjuna tiṣṭhati [Bg. 18.61]. What is His business? He is simply waiting for the time when we shall turn our face to Kṛṣṇa. That is His business. But unfortunately, we do not want Kṛṣṇa. We want something which is not Kṛṣṇa. That is our disease. Still, Kṛṣṇa is giving us facility. Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. Kṛṣṇa gives intelligence, mattaḥ smṛtir jñānam apohanaṁ ca [Bg. 15.15], that "You are My part and parcel. Why you are struggling so hard in this material world? Come to Me. I will give you all protection." Ahaṁ tvāṁ sarva-pāpebhyo mokṣayiṣyāmi [Bg. 18.66]. He is ready. But I'll not do. That's my obstinacy. At that time what Kṛṣṇa will do? He is affectionate father. "All right, what do you want to do?" "I want to do like this." "All right." Bhrāmayan sarva-bhūtāni yantrārūḍhāni māyayā [Bg. 18.61]. He immediately orders prakṛti---mayādhyakṣena prakṛteḥ sūyate sa-carācaram [Bg. 9.10]---"This living entity wants a body like this. So give him a body like that." Yantra. That is called yantra. It is a machine. This body is the machine. And therefore we are changing, one body to another, yantrārūḍhāni māyayā. This is our business.

So if I am now in a yantra, Mercedes car, and suppose next life I ride on another yantra which is four-legged dog, then what is the benefit of this kind of struggle for existence? But that is going on. Therefore Kṛṣṇa warns, aśraddhadhānāḥ puruṣā dharmasyasya parantapa mām aprāpya. "The aim of life was to achieve Me," Kṛṣṇa says, "but the result is, because he does not hear what I say," mām aprāpya nivartante, "again goes back," mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. This material world means to take birth and die. That is called mṛtyu-saṁsāra-vartmani. Now I am born as Indian or as brāhmaṇa or something like that. The next life, there is no guarantee. Kṛṣṇa does not say that there is guarantee. Kṛṣṇa says tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ: you have to change your body. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ dhīras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13].

So our request is that such a great science of..., for the human society, for understanding the problems of life, how to solve it, how to achieve the greatest success in life... We have got this in the Bhagavad-gītā. Why should we neglect it? What is the reason? Other things may go on---this political fight or some fight. Fighting. This is a world of fighting. Āgamāpāyino 'nityaḥ tams titikṣasva bhārata. Mātrā-sparśās tu kaunteya śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ [Bg. 2.14]. This is world of śītoṣṇa-sukha-duḥkha-dāḥ. You cannot avoid it. So tāṁs titikṣasva bhārata. Just try to tolerate. Caitanya Mahāprabhu also says the same thing:

tṛṇād api sunīcena
taror api suhiṣṇunā
amāninā mānadena
kīrtanīyaḥ sadā hariḥ
[Cc. Ādi 17.31]

We have to become tolerant than the grass on the street and forbearing more than the trees. In this way we have to tolerate whatever is going on in this material world. Tolerate does not mean unnecessarily we shall suffer. As far as possible, let us struggle, but we should not forget our real business. That is human life. Real business is that I am part and parcel of God. Mamaivāṁśo jīva-bhūta [Bg. 15.7]. Some way or other, I am fallen in this material condition. There is a Bengali poet, he has sung, anādi-karama-phale paḍi, bhavārṇava-jale, tarivāre na dheki upāya. "Somehow or other I am fallen in this material ocean and struggling for existence." Caitanya Mahāprabhu therefore prays... He does not pray for any material benefit. He is teaching us, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4] = "My Lord, Jagadīśa, I do not want any material happiness or wealth," na dhanaṁ na janam, "or great followers," na sundarīṁ kavitām, "or beautiful wife." These are the demands of the karmīs: "I must have wealth, I must have position, I must have beautiful home, beautiful wife." But Caitanya Mahāprabhu denies. He says, na dhanaṁ na janaṁ na sundarīṁ kavitāṁ vā jagadīśa kāmaye. He does not want even mukti. Because He says next line that mama janmani janmanīśvare bhavatād bhaktir ahaitukī tvayi [Cc. Antya 20.29, Śikṣāṣṭaka 4] = "Life after life simply let Me remain Your devotee."

ayi nanda-tanuja patitaṁ kiṅkaraṁ
māṁ viṣame bhavāmbudhau
kṛpayā tava pāda-paṅkaja-
sthita-dhūlī-sadṛṣaṁ vicintaya
[Cc. Antya 20.32, Śikṣāṣṭaka 5]

So we have got such vast knowledge for achieving the goal of life. It is India. Why should we neglect? Why we should become so foolish that forget our real purpose of life and engage in will-o'-the-wisp struggle for existence, which will never be successful? Why this misconception of life? At least, there must be this institution of Kṛṣṇa consciousness in India so that not only the Indians, but all outside India, they should come and learn what is Kṛṣṇa consciousness. [applause] So it is already explained. We are trying to develop this institution in Bombay. Bombay is the best city in India, and people are also very advanced, enlightened. So let us combine together and develop this institution for the whole human society. That is our ambition. It is not for any sect or any creed or any particular class of men. Manuṣyāṇāṁ sahasreṣu [Bg. 7.3]. It is for the human society, and we have got this opportunity of human body. A Bengali poet sings, hari hari biphale janama goṅāinu. Manuṣya-janama pāiyā, rādhā-kṛṣṇa nā bhajiyā, jāniyā śuniyā viṣa khāinu. "My Lord, I have wasted my this valuable life, human form of life, because I did not take to Kṛṣṇa consciousness."

So if you do not take Kṛṣṇa consciousness seriously in this human form of life, then you must know that you are drinking poison knowingly. Don't neglect it. Try to understand. It is based on science, philosophy, śāstra, knowledge. It is not a blind faith. And we are prepared to answer you in any way. The method is very simple; even a child can take advantage of it. Not that we are manufacturing. It is sanctioned in the śāstra. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann asti hy eko mahān guṇaḥ [SB 12.3.51]. This is the statement by Śukadeva Gosvāmī to Mahārāja Parīkṣit. He describes the faults of this Kali-yuga. It is just like the ocean. Kaler doṣa-nidhe rājann hy asti eka mahān... But there is one very great advantage, he said. What is that? Kīrtanād eva kṛṣṇasya mukta-saṅgaḥ paraṁ vrajet [SB 12.3.51]. If you chant Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra, then you become free from all contamination and go back to home, back to Godhead.

Thank you very much.

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: Some people have questions. Do you want to answer them?

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Tamāla Kṛṣṇa: No need? Kīrtana?

Prabhupāda: They do not know. Hare Kṛṣṇa. Thank you very much. Jaya.

Girirāja: We're inviting all of you to remain for... [break] [end]

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Srila Prabhupada speaks on: Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.5.2

Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam 5.5.2

Johannesburg, Oct. 22, 1975

Audio for this lecture: https://prabhupadavani.org/transcriptions/751022sbjoh/
Prabhupada Radio: https://prabhupadaradio.com

Prabhupāda:

mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes
tamo dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam
mahāntas te sama-cittāḥ praśāntā
vimanyavaḥ suhṛdaḥ sādhavo ye
[SB 5.5.2]

In continuation of the last verse I recited day before yesterday, the second verse is suggesting how one can be liberated from this material bondage. In the first verse it was suggested that this human form of life is not meant for wasting uselessly like the animals, dogs and hogs. It should be properly utilized. The suggestion was tapa, tapasya. Tapasya means austerity, voluntarily accepting some inconvenience. This is called tapasya. Tapa, one meaning is "disturbances." Suppose I am practiced to some habit. If I am advised to give it up, it becomes little troublesome. For example, if I am habituated to smoke and somebody or higher authority says, "Don't smoke," to give up smoking is little difficult, those who are habituated to smoke. Similarly... But according to the doctor's advice if somebody has to give up smoking, he has to. Otherwise his disease may not be cured.

Similarly, our this present position, tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvam [SB 5.5.1], we are constantly, repeatedly changing body, transmigration of the soul. Tathā dehāntara-prāptiḥ [Bg. 2.13]. That means we are accepting death. Death means change of the..., final change of the body. When this body is no more useful to continue, then by nature another body is offered. At the time of death, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram, sadā tad-bhāva-bhāvitaḥ [Bg. 8.6]---we create a mental situation. We have got two kinds of bodies = subtle body and gross body. This gross body is made of five gross material elements = earth, water, fire, air, ether. And the subtle body is made of mind, intelligence and ego. When we sleep, the gross body does not work but the subtle body works. We dream therefore. So the... At the time of death this gross body is finished, but the subtle body---mind, intelligence and ego---will carry me to another gross body. It will enter into the womb of another mother, and she will create another similar body like the mother, and when it is complete, then it will come out.

So the spirit soul is in this way bound up by the material gross body and subtle body. This is our disease. This is... Material existence means we are suffering from this disease. So in the first verse it was suggested by Ṛṣabhadeva to His sons, "My dear sons," tapo putrakā. Tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvaṁ yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam [SB 5.5.1]. Our position is, as I explained the other day, we are part and parcel of God. So God's existence is sac-cid-ānanda vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1] = eternal, blissful, knowledge. So we are part and parcel. Our knowledge, our blissfulness, our eternity may be very small, but we possess the same quality. Ānandamayo 'bhyāsāt [Vedānta-sūtra 1.1.12]. In the Vedānta-sūtra it is said that spirit soul or God... God is the supreme spirit, and we are minute. He is vibhu, unlimited; we are aṇu, very small---molecular or atomic. So quality is the same. So our seeking after eternity, seeking after full knowledge and to remain blissful, that is our nature because we are part and parcel of God.

But on account of being covered by these material elements---earth, water, air, fire, ether, mind, intelligence and ego---we are suffering this disease, janma-mṛtyu-jarā-vyādhi [Bg. 13.9]. Janma means birth, and mṛtyu means death. As soon as we take birth, it means we must be prepared for death. I am increasing my age means decreasing my age, not increasing. When a child is born, if some friends ask, "When this child is born?" "Now, one week before," that means the child has already died one week. From his duration of life, make one week minus. So we are dying every moment. Mṛtyu, death, is sure. "As sure as death." So... But we are not meant for death, neither we are meant for birth. That is explained in the Bhagavad-gītā. Na jāyate na mriyate vā: "The spirit soul is never born, neither he dies." Nityaḥ śāśvato 'yaṁ na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre [Bg. 2.20]. The spirit soul, nitya, eternal; śāśvata, inexhaustible; na hanyate, clearly says, na hanyate hanyamāne śarīre. So this death is artificial. Therefore we do not like to die. We do not like to be unhappy. We do not like to be without any knowledge. This is our nature. But because this nature is hampered on material condition, therefore the business of the human being is to cure this disease---birth, death, old age and disease. This is the mission of life, not to waste time, not to waste our life, duration of life, just simply jumping like dog and hog. That is not human life. Tapo divyam [SB 5.5.1].

Therefore we have to undergo tapasya. We should not indulge whimsically to anything. That is not human life. Therefore human life, there is need of education; there is need of regularities; there is need of following the instruction of the authorities. That is in human life. Law is meant for the human life, not for the cats and dogs. Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva suggested that "You practice austerity." Means... Austerity means, I have already explained, I do not like to do anything, but for curing my this material disease, I have to do that. This is called austerity. The same example = I am habituated to smoke. I don't like. If somebody said, "Don't smoke," it is difficult for me. But I have to do it if I want to cure my disease. This is called austerity.

So according to Vedic system we should be sinless. Unless we become sinless, there is no possibility of understanding God. That is not possible. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā:

yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ
janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām
te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā
bhajante māṁ dṛḍha-vratāḥ
[Bg. 7.28]

"A person who has completely finished the reaction of his sinful life..." Yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpaṁ janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām. So if we be engaged in puṇya karma, pious activities, then there is no chance of acting impiously. So puṇya-karmaṇām. Yajña dāna tapaḥ kriyaḥ. These are the activities of piety = yajña, performing sacrifice. There are different types of sacrifices mentioned, but in this age it is difficult. Therefore in this age the easiest sacrifice is chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana-prāyair yajanti hi su-medhasaḥ [SB 11.5.32]. This, performing this yajña, saṅkīrtana-yajña, you have to simply agree. Otherwise you have no loss. Simply you have gain. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. We are not asking anybody that "Give us some fee, some dollars. Then you chant." No. It is free. You can chant---if you like. This is yajña. This is the yajña of this age. Anyone can join. It doesn't matter that this class of men will join. No, anyone---poor, rich, white, black, illiterate, learned---everyone. Yajñaiḥ saṅkīrtana means bahubhir militvā [Quoted in Śrī Amnāya-sūtra 62]. Many people assembled together, when glorifying the Lord, that is called saṅkīrtana.

So this Hare Kṛṣṇa mahā-mantra means... We are preaching all over the world. There is no difficulty. Everyone is joining. Everyone is chanting. So it is not very difficult task. Any can... This is yajña. And then dāna. Dāna means charity. So whatever you earn, at least some percentage of your money should be given in charity. The best charity is to give for spreading this Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement, God consciousness. Kṛṣṇa said, dadāsi yat kuruṣva tad mad-arpanam [Bg. 9.27] = "If you want to give in charity something, please give Me." Kṛṣṇa says, God says. So yajña-dāna-tapaḥ, again tapa, austerity. Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ-kriyaḥ pāvanāni manīṣiṇām. We should not give up this practice, performing yajña, giving in charity and practicing tapasya. This is essential for the human being. This should be practiced as far as possible. So this is called pious activities. So one should be engaged in pious activities. Then there will be no chance of committing sinful activities. In this way, when you are mature, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam, no more sinful life, pure life, yeṣāṁ tv anta-gataṁ pāpam janānāṁ puṇya-karmaṇām, always practicing pious activities, te dvandva-moha-nirmuktā, such person without any doubt, without any duality, can be engaged in the service of the Lord. Such person.

Therefore Ṛṣabhadeva says, tapo divyaṁ putrakā [SB 5.5.1]. Putrakā, "My dear boys, My dear sons, don't waste your time like dogs and hogs. Just practice tapasya." Tapo divyam. Divyam. Divyam means for divine purpose, not for manufacturing some weapon for killing thousands of men at a time. This requires also tapasya, very great attention, labor and perseverance. Everything required. That is called tapasya. But not that kind of tapasya, for the inauspicious position of the human society. No. Tapo divyam, for divine understanding. So the benefit will be yena śuddhyet sattvam. Then our existence, the position, existentional position, will be purified. And what will be the result if it is purified? Yena brahma-saukhyam anantam. We are seeking after eternal life, we are seeking after happiness and we are seeking after full knowledge. That will be attained. So tapo divyaṁ putrakā yena śuddhyet sattvaṁ yasmād brahma-saukhyam anantam... [SB 5.5.1]. That is success of life.

Now in the next verse, how we can practice tapasya, that is recommended here. Mahat-sevām. Mahat sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ [SB 5.5.2]. Mahat, great soul. Mahat means great soul. Who is great soul? Mahātmānas tu māṁ pārtha daivīṁ prakṛtim āśritāḥ [Bg. 9.13]. Great soul means who has taken shelter of the spiritual nature. He is great soul. There are two natures = spiritual nature and material nature. We can understand material nature, this body, and the spiritual nature, the soul. And there are two things within our this existence = matter and spirit. Similarly, there are two energies of God. One energy is called material energy, and the other is called spiritual energy. God is appreciated. We can understand God---there is God---by the presence of His energy, just like we can understand there is sun in the presence of the sunlight. Light is the energy of the sun. In the morning, as soon as you see through your door, open window, that there is now light, you can understand there is sunrise. So we can understand the existence of God by the presence of His energy. By the presence of His energy. Just like sun is appreciated by the presence of heat and light, similarly, whatever we see in this world... There are two energies working = material energy and the spiritual energy. We can understand there is God. Otherwise wherefrom this energy is coming? As soon as we get heat and light, we understand there is the sun. Similarly, sarvedam akhilaṁ jagat.

eka-deśa-sthitāsyagner
jyotsnā vistāriṇī yathā
parasya brāhmaṇaḥ śaktis
sarvedam akhilaṁ jagat
[Viṣṇu Purāṇa 1.22.52]

What is this world? This world is distribution of the two energies of God = the material energy and the spiritual energy. So mahat means one who has taken shelter of the spiritual energy. He is called mahat, great soul. So far the material energy is concerned, they, generally all living entities who are in this material world, they have taken the shelter of the material energy, 8,400,000 forms of body. But the mahat means one who has taken the shelter of the spiritual energy. So mahat sevaṁ: we have to approach such person who has taken the shelter of the spiritual energy of God. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes. If you want liberation from this bondage---birth, death, old age and disease and so many other things---then you have to execute tapasya under the direction of a great soul, mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimukteḥ, if you want liberation. And tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Yoṣitām. Yoṣitām means... Yoṣit mean woman.

So this material energy is... Every energy is woman. The spiritual energy is also woman, material energy is woman. The material energy is tamo, darkness, and the other energy is the light. Therefore Vedic injunction is, tamasi mā jyotir gamaḥ [Bṛhad-āraṇyaka Upaniṣad 1.3.28]. Don't remain under this, the darkness, material energy. In the Caṇḍī, those who have read Caṇḍī, ya devī sarva-bhūtānāṁ nidrā-rūpena samāsthitaḥ. The material energy's business is to keep us slumber, in slumber, without any pure knowledge. This is material energy. So if we keep ourself within the material energy, that will lead us more and more in the darkest region of hellish condition of life. Tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam. Those who are too much materially affected, to associate with such person means you remain within the material energy. And if you associate with persons who are great souls, who have taken the shelter of spiritual energy, your path of liberation will be open. This is the purport. Mahat-sevāṁ dvāram āhur vimuktes tamo-dvāraṁ yoṣitāṁ saṅgi-saṅgam mahāntas te sama-cittāḥ.

And how I can understand who is mahat, or great soul? So that description is given. Mahāntas te sama-cittāḥ: equilibrium. They are kind to everyone. There is no discrimination. Sama-cittāḥ. That means spiritual realization, to see everyone on equal level.

vidyā-vinaya-sampanne
brāhmaṇe gavi hastini
śuni caiva śva-pāke ca
paṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ
[Bg. 5.18]

In another place it is said, brahma-bhūtaḥ prasannātmā na śocati na kāṅkṣati, samaḥ sarveṣu bhūteṣu [Bg. 18.54]. This is sama-cittāḥ, equally disposed to everyone, not that "He is American, so I shall be kind to him," or "He is Indian. I shall be kind to him," "He is black. I shall be kind to him." No. Everyone. Pāṇḍitāḥ sama-darśinaḥ [Bg. 5.18]. Sama-cittāḥ. This is the qualification of great soul. There is no distinction that "He is such and such person. Therefore I have no business with him." No. The preaching... Kṛṣṇa is preaching to everyone. Christ is preaching to everyone. They are called mahānta. Mahānta means great soul.

So here it is said, mahāntas te sama-cittāḥ praśāntā, always very peaceful. Prakṛṣṭa-rūpeṇa śāntā. There is no disturbance. Because he knows himself, he is not disturbed by any material condition. Ahaituky apratihatā. Spiritual advancement of life is never hindered by any material condition. It is not that "I am under such and such condition. I cannot make any advancement in spiritual life." No. Spiritual advancement is never checked by material condition. Therefore it is said praśāntā. Vimanyavaḥ: "He is never angry. Never angry." Vimanyavaḥ suhṛdaḥ. Su... And well-wisher for everyone. That is the vision of mahānta. He is seeing that "Without God consciousness, without his relationship with God, he is suffering." Suhṛdaḥ sādhavaḥ. Sādhava, sādhu. The sum and substance... Sādhu means saintly person. So who is saintly person? Titikṣavaḥ kāruṇikāḥ suhṛdaḥ sarva-bhūtānām [SB 3.25.21]. Sādhu means, saintly person means, titikṣava, tolerant, tolerant, without being disturbed. Now, in the Western countries Lord Jesus Christ, the tolerant, he is being crucified; still, he is praying to God, "Please excuse them." So of course, his position is different. One should try to become sādhu. Sādhavaḥ. Titikṣava kāruṇikāḥ suhṛdaḥ sarva-bhūtānām. So the sum and substance of sādhu means, as it is stated in the Bhagavad-gītā, māṁ ca vyabhi... Api cet sudurācāro bhajate mām ananya-bhāk, sādhur eva sa mantavyaḥ [Bg. 9.30]. If one is staunchly adhered to the service of the Lord, he is called sādhu, saintly person, sādhava. Mahāntas te sama-cittāḥ praśāntā vimanyavaḥ suhṛdaḥ sādhavo ye. These are the qualification of mahātmā, great soul.

So we have to find out. The Vedic injunction is, "Try to find out such person," that you have to take... Tad viddhi praṇipātena paripraśnena sevayā. You find out such person and associate with him. Try to serve him, praṇipātena, by fully surrender.

tad viddhi praṇipātena
paripraśnena sevayā
upadekṣyanti tad jñānaṁ
jñāninaḥ...
[Bg. 4.34]

So we have to approach such person. As it is described here, mahat-sevām. I have to give my service to the great soul. And these are the symptoms of great soul. So as we are finding out so many things for our satisfaction, so our real business is how to get out of this material disease. And to get out of this material disease, the prescription is given here, mahat-sevām: "Just try to serve a great soul." And who is a great soul? That is described here = mahāntas te sama-cittāḥ praśāntā vimanyavaḥ suhṛdaḥ sādhavo ye.

Then the next verse it is said... This is, this sādhu, this mahātmā, generally those who are in the renounced order of life. There are four grades of life = brahmacārī, gṛhastha, vānaprastha and sannyāsa. The description already given, it is meant for mendicant, who have nothing to do with material affairs or household life, renounced order, sannyāsī. It, that is applicable to them. But another mahātmā also is recommended here:

ye vā mayīśe kṛta-sauhṛdārthā
janeṣu dehambhara-vārtikeṣu
gṛheṣu jāyātmaja-rātimatsu
na prīti-yuktā yāvad-arthāś ca loke
[SB 5.5.3]

Another, that gṛhastha, householder... It is not that simply sannyāsī, renounced order, those who have renounced this material connection, they can become great soul. Not necessarily. Even those who are in family life, living with wife, children, friends, they can also become great soul. They can become great soul. So how they can become great soul? Ye vā mayīśe kṛta-sauhṛdārthā. They are, such gṛhastha, householder, is not exactly meant for "How to get money? How to get money?" No. Their aim is how to get friendship of the Lord. That is their aim. It doesn't matter he lives with wife and children. That doesn't matter. But what is the aim of his life? The aim of his life = mayīśe kṛta-sauhṛdārthā. This instruction is given by Ṛṣabhadeva. He is incarnation of God. Therefore He said, "One who is seeking the friendship of Me," or God, kṛta-sauhṛdārthā, "his only business is how to keep friendship with Kṛṣṇa."

Just like Arjuna. Arjuna is a householder, and he is a kṣatriya, royal family, and he was a warrior. He knew how to fight. But his friendship with Kṛṣṇa was very, very intense. Kṛta-sauhṛdārthā. Therefore Kṛṣṇa instructed Arjuna that "Arjuna, I am instructing this mystery of Bhagavad-gītā unto you." Arjuna might have said that "Why You are giving me instruction? I am neither sannyāsī, nor a very learned scholar in Vedānta or... I am gṛhastha, householder, a politician, in royal family. So why You have selected me?" Now, bhakto 'si: "Because you are My devotee." So this is wanted. Bhakto 'si priyo 'si [Bg. 4.3]. Not only ordinary friend; very dear friend. So if you become dear friend like Arjuna of Kṛṣṇa, or God, then in whatever position you remain, you are mahātmā, great soul. That is required. It is not that... In the Kali-yuga, in this age, it is very difficult to accept renounced order of life. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended that "You remain in your position---it doesn't matter---but become a mahātmā, great soul." That is Caitanya Mahāprabhu's recommendation. Sthāne sthitāḥ śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ manobhir prāyaśo jito ajita. The process is how to become mahātmā.

That process is recommended by Caitanya Mahāprabhu. Not it is His manufactured process, but it is recommended in the Vedic śāstra. What is that? Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva [SB 10.14.3]. The process is = don't try to speculate on God. Give up this process, this bad habit. You cannot speculate. No. Jñāne prayāsa. This is called jñāna. Jñāna means knowledge, acquired knowledge. Everyone is trying to... Nobody is interested now to understand what is God, but there are some. But they are trying to understand God by mental speculation. So Caitanya Mahāprabhu said, "This practice should be given up, speculation." Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva. Just become submissive, namanta eva. Don't think that "I am very learned scholar. I can manufacture my own way how to find out God," or "I am God," and so on, so on. This practice should be given up. "Just become humble and meek." Jñāne prayāsam udapāsya namanta eva. "Then what shall I do, becoming humble and meek?" San-mukharitāṁ bhavadīya-vārtām. You try to understand about God from a God-realized person. That you do. That will help you. Sthāne sthitāḥ. There is no need of changing your position. You remain wherever you are. Śruti-gatāṁ tanu-vāṅ manobhiḥ. Just lend your this aural reception and try to hear about God from the self-realized person, from mahātmā. Then one day it will become so, that although God is unconquerable, you will conquer Him. Prāyena ajita jito 'py asi. You'll conquer over. God..., you cannot conquer God, but God agrees to be conquered by His devotee. This is the indirect meaning, to become devotee. This is the way.

And what is the devotional way? Śravaṇaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ [SB 7.5.23]. Just try to hear about Viṣṇu, the Supreme Lord. Śravanam. The first is that you have kindly come here; you are trying to hear. This is very good. This is the beginning of process. Then kīrtanam, śravanaṁ kīrtanam. Whatever you hear, you discuss amongst yourselves. That is called kīrtana. Śravanaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam. Remember about the topics of God. Śravanaṁ kīrtanam viṣṇoḥ smaraṇam pāda-sevanam arcanaṁ vandanam. There are nine methods. Arcanam, temple worship. So any one of these methods will help you. If you take the nine methods, that is very good. If not, take eight. If not, take seven. If not, take six. Take five, four, three, two. Take at least one. That one is very easy---śravanam. We are opening several centers of Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement. Not only we are... There are many other centers also to hear about God. That is very essential. Śravanaṁ kīrtanaṁ viṣṇoḥ smaraṇaṁ pāda-sevanam. So this process can be practiced even at home. There is no necessity that you have to change your place, you have to give up your business, you have to..., occupation, or you have to give up your family relationship. No. You remain in your... But practice this śravanam. Just like you are hearing here in this hall, you can do it at home. These books are there. I am speaking from the book. You can speak also from the book, and sit down amongst your family members and chant Hare Kṛṣṇa.

So the aim should be how to become friend of God. It doesn't matter whether you remain at home or out of home. Narottama dāsa Ṭhākura says, gṛhe bā vanete thāke, 'hā gaurāṅga' bale ḍāke. Either you remain at home or outside home, you chant śrī kṛṣṇa caitanya prabhu nityānanda śrī-advaita gadādhara śrīvāsādi-gaura-bhakta-vṛnda. This is the process, very simple process. And Hare Kṛṣṇa. And if you want... Of course, knowledge will come automatically. If your heart is purified by this śravanaṁ kīrtanam method, ceto-darpaṇa-mārjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12], then the heart will be purified. And God is situated within your heart. Then, as soon as your heart is purified, you'll be able to see God within yourself, within your heart. That is called meditation. You see God within yourself and see constantly = "Here is God. Here is Kṛṣṇa." That is meditation.

So premāñjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilocanena santaḥ sadaiva hṛdayeṣu vilokayanti [Bs. 5.38]. Santaḥ, saintly persons, or mahātmā, they develop by hearing about God constantly. They develop love of God. That is the aim of life. That is the real purpose of human life. Premā pum-artho mahān. Caitanya Mahāprabhu recommended that what is the actual benefit of this human form of life = to develop our dormant love for God. That is wanted, not to accumulate money. Nothing will go with us. Everything will remain. The bank balance will remain in the bank, and we have to go, and there will be fight amongst the claimanants. So that will be created. But nothing will go with you. Simply your consciousness, Kṛṣṇa consciousness, will help you. At the time of death, if you remember Kṛṣṇa... Yaṁ yaṁ vāpi smaran loke tyajaty ante kalevaram [Bg. 8.6]. Some way or other, if you remember at the time of death Kṛṣṇa, then your life is successful. So it doesn't matter whether you remain outside home or inside home, what is your occupation, but do not forget your real business. This is the Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

So,

ye vā mayīśe kṛta-sauhṛdārthā
janeṣu dehambhara-vārtikeṣu
gṛheṣu jāyātmaja-rātimatsu
na prīti-yuktāḥ...
[SB 5.5.3]

The symptom of a mahātmā, great soul, is described here. What is that? That dehambhara-vārtikeṣu. Those who are simply planning how to keep this body comfortable, that is the material world. Everyone is busy how to keep this body very comfortable, although it is not possible. There are so many disturbances, so many miserable condition, that there is no possibility of keeping this body in comfortable position. That is not... That is a fact. But still, we are trying. There they are called deha, dehambhara-vārtikeṣu. Just to make gorgeous arrangement for keeping this body very comfortable, they are called dehambhara-vārtikeṣu. They are simply busy how to keep this body comfortable. To such person, janeṣu dehambhara... And gṛheṣu, although he is at home, then... Jāyā means wife. Jāyā, ātma-jā, the children; and rāti, money. These things are required, household. Wife required; children required; money required; place required. So, na prīti-yuktāh. His business is not how to increase money, how to please the, I mean to say, relatives, how to talk with the persons interested in keeping this body. Na prīti-yuktāh. He is not interested with them. Prīti-yuktā yāvad-arthāś ca loke. Simply just be engaged with them as far as your duty. It does not mean that "I am not attached to my wife; therefore I shall forget my duties to wife and children." It does not mean. Yāvad-arthāś ca loke. "As it is my duty, I must execute, but my main business is how to secure friendship with Kṛṣṇa." Such kind of gṛhastha is mahātmā.

So there are two kinds of mahātmā. One is renounced order. They are preaching all over the world for the benefit of the society. And the gṛhastha, he may not be preaching... He can preach. Amongst his relatives, member, children, he can also preach, friends. So preaching cannot be stopped. You do small scale or big scale---the benefit will be śravanaṁ kīrtanam. Just we like are preaching. We are hearing also, and you are chanting also. So this chanting and hearing process should be increased. One should try to become sinless and try to make friendship with God. Then our life will be successful.

Thank you very much. Hare Kṛṣṇa. [applause] [break]

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Questions, Śrīla Prabhupāda? Does anyone have any questions? [break]

Guest (1): Your Divine Grace Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupāda, I saw in the Bhagavad-gītā where the Lord explains to the devotee Arjuna the yoga of His cosmic form. Arjuna, however, visualizes and experiences this cosmic form of the Lord. I would like to know what divine grace did the Lord impart unto Arjuna so that he could visualize the cosmic form of the Lord.

Prabhupāda: God has His form. That I explained the other day. But His form is not like our form. His form is sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. His body is eternal, full of knowledge, and blissful. Our this form is not eternal, neither full of knowledge, nor blissful. So it is not that God has no form. When it is described indirectly that "God has no form," means He has no form like us. Don't think that He has no form. He has no form, material form like us, which is not eternal, not full of knowledge, not blissful. So God has form. So God's form is realized in three different stages. It is said in the Śrīmad-Bhāgavatam,

vadanti tat tattva-vidas
tattvaṁ yaj jñānam advayam
brahmeti paramātmeti
bhagavān iti śabdyate
[SB 1.2.11]

"That Absolute Truth is realized... They are one, but realized in three different phases." Just like the example is given, I have given several times, that the sun, the sun globe and the sun-god. There is... Within the sun globe there is sun-god. His name is Vivasvān. As you refer to Bhagavad-gītā, in the Bhagavad-gītā you will find the predominating deity, or the president, of the sun globe. His name is Vivasvān. Imaṁ vivasvate yogaṁ proktavān aham avyayam [Bg. 4.1]. Kṛṣṇa says that many millions of years ago He went to the sun globe and He preached this Bhagavad-gītā to the sun-god, the president of the sun globe, Vivasvān.

So there are living entities. The sun-god is the living entity. The difference is that the living entities there, the body is made of fire. As our body is made of earth, dirt, their body is made of fire. Therefore they are so glowing, everything. It is a fiery planet, airy planet, watery planet, earthly planet---five elements. So if we cannot imagine that "Because we have got earthly body, there cannot be fiery body," that is our lack of knowledge, poor fund of knowledge. In God's creation there are varieties. So just like we can see in the water there are living entities. Their body is made of different..., not different, but different proportion of the material elements so they can remain within the water. Similarly, different proportion in every planet... In the śāstra we see. It is not that, that all the planets are vacant only. This is not very good idea. Everywhere there are living entities. So all these living entities throughout the whole universe, they are possessing body of the material elements.

But God has no such body. His body is different, sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. So that sac-cid-ānanda-vigrahaḥ, spiritual body, can be expanded, reduced. Aṇor aṇīyān mahato mahīyān [Kaṭha Upaniṣad 1.2.20]. He can expand this body, spiritual body, bigger than the biggest, and He can reduce the body smaller than the smallest. That is God's body. You cannot do that. Aṇḍāntara-stha-paramāṇu-caya... [Bs. 5.35]. God is within the atom. How He is within the atom? Then anor anīyāh. He can become smaller than the smallest. He can become the bigger than the biggest. So Arjuna, when he saw the viśvarūpa, He showed him the bigger-than-the-biggest form. But His usual form is two-handed and two leg. Just like it is said in the Bible, "Man is made after the image of God." So God has got two hands, two legs, exactly. But He is the omnipotent, almighty. Our power is limited; His power is unlimited. Otherwise, He has got form.

Woman guest: Your Grace, I would like to know why you call the body, the material world, "darkness" and "diseased." You refer many times [indistinct] to the body as diseased, and darkness is but one aspect of [indistinct] but a different form of energy as the light. And darkness and light are but one of the many aspects of the supreme form of energy.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: The question is, why do you refer to the material world as darkness and as a disease?

Prabhupāda: Don't you see darkness? You require light.

Woman guest: Dark, yes, but darkness is but another form of light.

Prabhupāda: Yes, ignorance. Darkness means ignorance. Material life means we do not know things as they are. That is darkness.

Woman guest: You say that in a figurative sense.

Prabhupāda: Yes. The knowledge is not perfect; therefore everyone is in darkness.

Woman guest: But why do you call the body and the spirit...? The spirit and the body is polemic of light, of being, the universes.

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Woman guest: Polemic. The counterpoint. You have darkness on one side, light on the other. Ignorance, if you want, is this aspect, identify this ignorance as darkness.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: I think the question is why do you consider the body as a disease?

Prabhupāda: Because there is birth, death and old age. This is disease.

Woman: But if it's only one form of energy, why, one certain level of energy, and energy never gets lost.

Prabhupāda: No, there are two...

Woman guest: Even people die, it surely, sir, is only a different level of energy, a different form of energy. Energy never...

Prabhupāda: Yes. That I have already explained, material energy and spiritual energy. In the material energy you have got all these birth, death, old age and disease. In the spiritual energy there is no such thing. So we have to go to the spiritual energy.

Woman guest: What do you call disease?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: You are eternal spirit soul, and you have to undergo birth and death. That's an unnatural condition, just like a fever is an unnatural condition for a healthy person. That's a disease.

Woman guest: But why should the supreme energy make it a disease? It's been ordained to have that, the form of the body...

Prabhupāda: Disease you contact. Nobody forces you to contact disease. When you become diseased, you contaminate some infection, not that anyone forces you to contaminate. So when you come to the material world, it is your own disease.

Woman guest: But it is a disease if you have to be reborn. It's reincarnation then, going to another form of disease again. But you will not..., haven't attained the spiritual, complete spiritual...

Prabhupāda: Yes. Then you'll be cured of this material disease. That is Kṛṣṇa consciousness movement.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Any other questions?

Guest (2): You mentioned that one must not speculate about God, and also you mentioned that one must try to be sinless. Wouldn't the idea of sinless be a speculation of God?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Wouldn't the idea of sinless...?

Guest (2): Be a speculation of God, if you say that God is...

Puṣṭa-kṛṣṇa: You've said, Śrīla Prabhupāda, that one should not speculate about God and that one should be sinless. To be sinless, is that a speculation of God?

Guest (2): Isn't the idea of sinless... We are... We live in sin. We do not know what sin is. So wouldn't the idea of living without sin be speculation? How do we know what sin is or not sin?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: We live in sin, so is it not speculation to consider a sinless state?

Prabhupāda: Yes. If you speculate, then also you will not be in position to understand what is sin and what is pious. Therefore you have to hear from the authority. Just like Kṛṣṇa says, yajña-dāna-tapaḥ kriya na tyājyam: "These four things should not be given up = performing sacrifices, giving in charity, and practicing tapasya." So you cannot speculate. You take the instruction from authority and try to do it. It is not speculation. It is receiving the instruction from the authority.

Guest (2): But because we do not know what sin is, wouldn't whatever the authority said be purely an idea to us?

Prabhupāda: So they do not know; therefore they must search out if he is serious.

Guest (2): But is there no way of finding out what is good and bad besides obeying guru, and the [indistinct], because to follow the guru would obviously be to create frustration.

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Is there some way to find out good without following the rules and regulations laid down by the authorities?

Prabhupāda: No, that is not possible. You cannot violate the rules and regulation. That is not possible.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He says that to follow the rules is to be frustrated.

Prabhupāda: Why frustrated? So many people are following the rules and regulation. What is the frustration?

Guest (2): [indistinct] if you follow rules, then isn't it obvious that you must be frustrated? You want to do something, but the rule says, "No, you must not do it."

Prabhupāda: That is tapasya. I want to do something, but the rule says, "Do not do," so I'll have to do it. This is called tapasya. I have no intention to do it, but because it is ordered by the authority, I have to do it. Just like the law. In the street you find it convenient to go by one side of the road, but the law says, "Keep to the right." So you don't like it, still, you have to go.

Guest (2): [indistinct] apply the standards later on what is good and bad. And to follow those standards means a great frustration. And a great frustration in this life, isn't that [indistinct] in this world?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: He says that to follow the rules and regulations... These rules and regulations, they have been forced upon us in our upbringing...

Guest (2): And also that are forced upon us in any religion.

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: And he says also in religion, rules and regulations are forced upon us. And does this not bring frustration because we are doing something we may not like to do? Is that your question?

Prabhupāda: That I have already explained. This is called tapasya. You have to do something which you may not like to do. That is tapasya.

Guest (2): [indistinct] you do not like to do.

Prabhupāda: That is advised = tapo divyaṁ putrakā. Yajña-dāna-tapaḥ kriyaḥ [SB 5.5.1]. This is called tapasya. I do not like to do something, but I have to do it because I have accepted somebody as authority. This is tapasya. So this has to be practiced. But it will be easier by chanting this Hare Kṛṣṇa mantra. There will be no... Just like these boys, European, American boys, they are strictly following the rules and regulation, but it has become not very difficult, very easy, because they are chanting Hare Kṛṣṇa. That is the only method.

Guest (2): But is not to accept authority, the authority of God, is that not to speculate about God? How do we know... How can I accept authority without knowing what God is? As soon as we say, "I know God," then obviously I am speculating. [indistinct]

Prabhupāda: Hmm?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is, "Is it not speculation to say that one knows God? As soon as he thinks that he knows God..."

Prabhupāda: You know also God. You know also God.

Guest (2): No, I don't.

Prabhupāda: No, you are... Or do you think you are independent of God?

Guest (2): I don't know what God is.

Prabhupāda: No, no, you do not know. Why you do not know? You do not know that you are not independent?

Guest (2): No, I do not know God.

Prabhupāda: But are you not going to die? Can you check your death? You will be forced to die, so how do you say that you are independent?

Guest (2): I haven't died, so I don't know what it is to die. So I don't know...

Prabhupāda: He does not know what is the meaning of death?

Guest (2): No. For me, personally, I do not know what death is.

Prabhupāda: "For me" means you are a special person.

Guest (2): Nobody knows what death is.

Prabhupāda: Everyone knows what is death. Everyone is afraid of death. If you do not know, then I do not know whether you are human being or... [laughter]

Guest (2): No, because it's speculation about God. We see people die, but if we do not know, if we do not experience with our emotions what [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: So you have to learn it; then you talk. You have to learn it. What you do not know, you have to learn it.

Guest (2): Then how do you learn about God if you do not know what God is?

Prabhupāda: You have to learn it. That I have said. But everyone knows that he is not independent. He is dependent. Just like you are young man. If you say, "I will not become old man," that is false. You will have to become old man. Therefore you are dependent. Why don't you think like that?

Guest (2): I don't say that I won't be.

Prabhupāda: Nobody wants to become an old man, but he is forced to become old man. How do you know that you are independent? You are dependent.

Guest (2): I'm not afraid of becoming old.

Prabhupāda: You may not be, but others are. They do not like to be old man and suffer the old man's position. [break] He says that,

māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya
ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ
striyo vaiśyās tathā śūdrās
te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatiṁ
[Bg. 9.32]

Striya means woman. So there is no restriction for going back to home, back to Godhead, for anyone, and what to speak of man, woman---anyone. If he wants to go back, there is no restriction. Te 'pi yānti parāṁ gatim. Māṁ hi pārtha vyapāśritya ye 'pi syuḥ pāpa-yonayaḥ. This is the difference. For God there is no discrimination. Women, men have equal rights to become godly and back to home, back to Godhead.

Guest (3): Gurujī, I should like to know how you reconcile the void... [indistinct] God is infinite, and He is all places, and you said just now that God has form. To have form would mean that He has [indistinct], He is finite... And how could you reconcile these two = He is formless, and He has form. He has form and yet infinite? There's confusing...

Prabhupāda: The reconciliation I have explained several times. Just like the sun globe, the sun-god and the sunshine. They are one, the light and heat. But still, sunshine is not the sun globe, and sun globe is not the sun-god. This is reconciliation. Anyone can understand. The three things, they are one by heat and light, but at the same time, when the sunshine is within your room it does not mean the sun globe is within your room or the sun-god is within your room. This is the reconciliation.

Woman guest (4): Do you believe that Jesus and Buddha and Kṛṣṇa are all manifestations of the same God? Or do you believe Kṛṣṇa is the only...?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: Do we believe that Jesus and Buddha and Kṛṣṇa are all manifestations of the same God, or do we believe that Kṛṣṇa is the only one?

Prabhupāda: No. They are manifestation of God. That is all right. We say, keśava dhṛta-buddha-śarīra jaya jagadīśa hare: "O my Lord Buddha, now you have come as Buddha, but you are the same Kṛṣṇa." We pray like that.

Guest (5): I would like to ask this question. You said that the mere repetition Hare Rāma, Hare Kṛṣṇa helps us along with the path of God realization. Take a simple thing, like assuming I was hungry and I said "food, food, food." That will not necessarily fill me. I'll still be hungry. How could the mere repetition of words bring about God realization?

Prabhupāda: "Food, food, food." [laughter] That is the difference between God's name and material name. In the material name, the food, the name of food and actually food---rice, ḍāl, cāpāṭi, food---they are different. They are different. But in the spiritual world, God and His name is the same.

Guest (5): But the significance that we give to the word "food" is the creation of man's mind. The word "God" is also the creation of man's mind. We attach spiritual significance to one word and not to the other. But if you speak of everything emanating from God, that ultimately means everything He is.

Prabhupāda: Yes. So if you become intelligent more, then you'll inquire, "Wherefrom the food comes?" At the present moment you may chant "food, food, food," and you get food. Then if you are intelligent, you'll inquire, "Wherefrom the food came?" That is the next step.

Guest (5): And I understand food must come from the earth, but the...

Prabhupāda: Food is coming from God. That you do not know. You are simply interested with food, but you do not know wherefrom the food is coming. That is your innocence. If you are advanced student, then your next inquiry will be, "Wherefrom the food comes?" Then you'll come to God. At the lower stage you are interested with food, but in the higher stage you'll be interested wherefrom the food comes. That is intelligence.

Guest (5): I'm not denying that one has to go through that stage. The other question I'd like to ask you...

Prabhupāda: You want to stay in the food stage, that's all. [laughter] So we are advising go further, more. That is our advice.

Guest (5): [indistinct] in going further. I'd like to know...

Prabhupāda: No. This is intelligence. If you are interested in food, that's all right. Everyone is interested in food. The child, he is interested with food only. Anything he gets, he puts into the mouth. He is interested in food. But when he grows up he understand that the food is supplied by the father, by the mother. That is progress of life. If you don't want progress, if you want to remain in the childhood stage, that is another thing.

Guest (5): One other question I have. That is, the question earlier... That is the question of authority. We have a spiritual master who takes it upon himself to tell us, the ignorant, what we should do. What things makes the spiritual master realize that he is the one master to show the ignorant that this is the path? Isn't it perhaps too much reponsibility to take it upon ourself, giving oneself this authority? Because as yourself finds out that [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: What is that?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: His question is that...

Prabhupāda: God is infinite?

Puṣṭa Kṛṣṇa: What is the special quality that makes one a spiritual master to describe the infinite, when God is beyond speculation?

Prabhupāda: God is beyond speculation, that's it. But the spiritual master says what God says. He does not change. That is spiritual master. Just like a child, he asks his father, "Father, what is this?" The father says, "My dear child, it is microphone." So when the child says, "It is microphone," this is correct, although he is child. So spiritual master means he says in toto what he hears from God. That's all. That is spiritual master. He does not make any speculation. That is the qualification of spiritual master. He speaks what he has heard from God. That's all.

Guest (5): But isn't that an assumption also that he has heard from God, not acts from his own conditioning?

Prabhupāda: God cannot be all. God is one. God means He has no equal, He has no..., nobody above Him. That is God, asamaurdhva. Nobody is more than God; nobody is equal to God. Therefore God is one.

Guest (6): If we assume that the Vedic scriptures are the, well, the realizations of realized souls and that these come from God, we have to work with the assumption that these literatures are actually telling us about God. And if we have to read the literatures and experience these truths, it is not necessarily truth as such, but maybe the condition that we have been rendered to by [indistinct].

Prabhupāda: In the Vedic literature the father, the teacher, the king, they are advised to look upon them as God. This is for the common person. But when he is advanced, then he goes above, that there is God above father, above king, above teacher. So according to the stages, there are different literatures in the Vedic knowledge. Sometimes demigods are also accepted. So they have also got power, but... Controller, they are also controller, but the ultimate controller is fixed up---īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ [Bs. 5.1]. "The supreme controller is Kṛṣṇa." That is the verdict of the Vedas. Īśvaraḥ paramaḥ kṛṣṇaḥ. In the Bhagavad-gītā it is said, mattaḥ parataraṁ nānyat [Bg. 7.7] = "There is no more superior controller or person than Me." So that is Absolute. Everywhere you will find. Suppose if you accept me God, but I am controlled by somebody else, so I am not absolute God. But if you can find out somebody---He is not only controller, but He is not controlled by anyone---then He is absolute God. That is Kṛṣṇa.

Guest (6): Thank you.

Prabhupāda: Yes. Chant Hare Kṛṣṇa. [end]

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